Re: [ Long OT ]Re: Request for review of DNS related draft

[Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>]

The crux of the issue is this:  You seem to be arguing that there are
insufficent monitoring facilites.  [that is, it would be helpful to have a
monitor ethernet port on a DOCSIS router, or other service provider 'head
end' routers] That could well be true. However, the provider doesn't need
to have a special protocol to find the DOCSIS head end. The provider
already _knows_ where it is from their facility records.  They don't need
a special protocol to tell them where it is and what its address and
network is. They already know this information.

But of course, rather than a special monitor port, what would be better is
a virtual monitor port that is then replicated via a standard vlan
protocol to an even more conveniently located ethernet monitor port.
This is a router software (maybe hardware in some cases) issue. It doesn't
require new protocols.

---- slightly longer version

Whether the network get complicated after the first hop or not, depends on
the network. In most cases, it doesn't get very complicated right away.
In cases where it does get complicated, then it's up to the provider to
	1) adjust the routing so that all that customers packets will go
somewhere it can be easily tapped
	2) Use multiple sniffers to grab all packets for that customer.

If you are using DHCP, then you can either
	1) track that, and update your sniffer filters as the address
changes
	2) Make sure the customer always gets the same address during the
tap. (not very hard, so probably the popular solution)

VOIP presents no additional issues. All packets contain the customer IP
address.  All you have to is grab them. You don't have to decode them. You
don't have to know anything about VOIP. You don't need to know anything
about UDP, or the codec used.  I just suggested to someone that they write
a proprietary encrypted codec.

Regarding the "placing of the sniffer", most switches have the capacity to
designate a port as a "monitor port", which provides a copy of all the
traffic on the monitored port.  This is sufficient for LEA capabilities.
All that is required is an ethernet.  Most of these switches support
10/100/and Gig ether interfaces.

I haven't looked at the specification you mentioned. I will try to do that
in the next day or so.  However, reading what you said, and taking that at
face value, all that seems necessary is an ethernet monitor port.

You seem to be making surveillance into a much bigger job than it is.
People have been doing it for years already. It could be a pain sometimes,
but it is straightforward.  Just pick up the packets, give them to the
LEA. Done.  Don't overthink it.



On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Ed Warnicke wrote:

> Dean,
>     My apology for the delay in getting back to you, I've
> been busy with other matters in the last few days.
>
> I will address your points in the following sequence:
> 1)    I will explain why your description of how to provide tapping to law
>       enforcement is insufficient.
> 2)    I will show that for a large class of service providers the first
> hop router
>       is the most logical place to tap ( and is in fact in some cases
>       the standard place to tap ).
> 3)    I will dispell the notion that when I speak of wiretapping I'm
> refering
>       exclusively to voice, or that I'm in anyway claiming voice awareness
>       on the part of the first hop router.
> 4)    I will clarify my use of the word "trust", as I was apparently
>       insufficiently clear.
> 5)    I will clarify some of what I meant by voice quality
>       measurement. Explain why it might make sense to intercept
>       actual voice traffic at the first hop gateway to for
>       one class of voice quality measurements.  I will also point
>       out the relavent telco specs describing the existence of the
>       "monitoring for testing and maintenance" functionality I described.
>
>     In your description of how to tap you suggest placing a sniffer
> at "some convenient point where that customers packets can be grabbed".
> Let's look at this suggestion.
>     First, you must identify "some convenient point where that customers
> packets can be grabbed".  In a typical service provider network, with
> appropriate levels of redundancy, the only place you will be able to
> reliably grab those packets is from the first hop router(s) at the
> edge.  Any further into your network and the possible links/routers
> the traffic may traverse multiplies rapidly.
>     Second, you must find some means of introducing a sniffer.  This
> involves either sticking a sniffer inline on the link, getting the
> router/device to replicate packets for you to a local interface, or getting
> the router/device to replicate packets for you to a remote collection
> point.
> Sticking a sniffer inline with the link is extremely expensive for high
> capacity links. Replicating packets to a local interface is sometimes
> possible,
> but in a service provider network it is entirely possible that the first
> hope
> router(s) have no interfaces not being used for some other purpose.
>  Additionally
> it would require introducing your sniffer to the same physical location
> as the
> device you're using as an access point for tapping.  This is operationally
> expensive and inconvenient.
>     Third the data you can capture and turn over to the LEA (law
> enforcement
> agency ) under the warrant issued is frequently constrained.  If you are
> a cable operator with as DOCSIS implementation then all of your
> customers have
> DHCP assigned IP addresses and thus the IP of the subject of the warrant
> may
> change over time.  There is also some chance that the IP of the person
> being
> tapped will be assigned to another subscriber, thus contaminating your
> sniffed
> traffic with someone elses traffic which you may not be able to legally
> turn
> over. So statically sniffing by IP is insufficient.  If the warrant is to
> tap their voice communications that you are providing over VoIP, then MUST
> turn those over, but typically MUST not turn over the customers data
> traffic
> ( unless a warrant for the data traffic has also been issued, the US is
> a bit
> strange this way ).  Since most VoIP bearer traffic is running over RTP
> on a
> arbitrary UDP port this presents additional issues.  All of this is
> challenging
> to cope with by just "placing a sniffer at some convenient point where that
> customers packets can be grabbed".
>
>     The first hop router(s) is the most logical place to tap
> for a large class of service providers.  Consider a Cable network.
> Here is a network where the edge consists of a large number of
> cable modems ( CM ) which are aggregated up a the Cable Modem Termination
> System ( CMTS ).  The CMTS is the first hop router.  The CMTS is also
> ( usually )the first network device that is not on the customer premise.
> The CMTS frequently has reduntant links up to redundant distribution
> routers in the network.  One can't be entirely sure which path will
> be taken after the first CMTS because multiple valid paths are being
> intentionally provided.  While there may be a favored path through the
> network, there are many conditions which could cause packets to take an
> alternate path.
>     If you look at the Packet Cable Electronic Surveillance
> Specification which I refered to in my last email here:
> http://www.packetcable.com/downloads/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf
> you will see that the CMTS ( the first hop gateway ) is specified as the
> Intercept Access Point for Call Content.  This means it *IS* the tap point.
> Large trunking media gateways may be used as Intercept Access Points for
> Call Content, but when tapping customer premise media gateways,
> particularily
> when their first link bandwidth is constrained ( like a VoIP enabled
> cable modem ) having the media gateway act as the Intercept Access Point
> is not reasonable.
>
>     When I speak of wiretapping, I am not exclusively speaking of
> tapping VoIP traffic.  Warrants in the US may be issued against
> data traffic, or voice traffic.  In many other juristictions they are issued
> against "communications".  The first hop gateway need not be VoIP aware
> at all.
> It needs only to be capable of replicating the desired packets to a
> collection
> point upon request.  See the aforementioned Packet Cable Spec for an
> example.
> I repeat, I do not claim, nor have I ever claimed, that the first hop
> gateway
> is in any fashion VoIP aware.  I have only specified a means to locate
> that gateway.  I have not specified the means by which it will replicate
> traffic
> for tapping or be instructed to replicate traffic for tapping.  That's
> beyond
> my scope.
>
>     When I refered to "trusting" devices I specifying devices that are
> beyond
> the customers capability to either interfere with, or detect, tapping
> activities.
> Generally any device that is actually on the customer premise is
> considered to
> be potentially comprimisable by the person being tapped, either in terms of
> detection or interference.  In consumer grade service provider networks the
> first hop router will almost always be under the physical control of the SP,
> while the endpoint will almost always be on the customers physical premise.
> I'm sorry if I was insufficiently clear on that point.  Think Cable Modem,
> DSL, dialup etc.
>
>     When I refered to voice quality I did not mean the jitter, packet loss,
> or out of order delivery of RTP packets.  This would generally be data
> collected on the media gateway.  I was refering to monitoring for human
> perceivable voice quality.  If you look at Bellcore GR-818
> "Network Maintenance: Access and Testing - Generic Test Architecture"
> section 4.4.5 "Monitor/Talk Line" describes the requirement in the TDM
> world that you be able to monitor the line for testing/maintenance purposes.
> More detail is available in Bellcore GR-844.
>     Additionally, my local telco guy, who's been an engineer in the TDM
> world for over 30 years, claims that these function have beem used
> routinely for
> both random monitoring of voice quality in the TDM world and specific
> problem
> isolation.  It is possible that some of the human part of this monitoring
> have been offloaded recently to automated processes as PAMs, PESQ, and PSQM
> have been coming up.  But if you've ever looked at a good PAM score for
> a line
> that sounded bad to the human ear you understand why this is not a complete
> solution.
>
>     I have worked on service provider class 4, class 5, and GR-303 VoIP
> replacements.  I've done a fair bit or work on VoIP over Cable.  I used to
> know a thing or two about MGCP ( I wrote the ethereal MGCP plugin among
> other things ).  I've moved on to doing other things in last year, but I
> like to think I'm not *that* rusty.
>     I am trying to solve a very simple problem of edge router location.
> That is the limit of the scope of my solution.  I put wrote this draft
> together
> to meet a particular demand, but tried to keep it generic enough to be
> useful
> for other applications.
>     If you have constructive suggestions I'm happy to hear them :)
>
> Ed
>
> Dean Anderson wrote:
>
> >None of these need to know the first hop router on _another_ network.
> >
> >Tapping a network for law enforcement is a simple as placing a sniffer at
> >some convenient point where that customers packets can be grabbed. The
> >packets are then turned over to law enforcement. It has nothing to do with
> >"trust" of the sniffer.  Law enforcement is responsible for decoding VOIP
> >traffic, or paying someone to do it, given packets.  A tap on a customer
> >network also does not need to involve the first hop router. And a law
> >enforcement tap should probably NOT involve the first hop router, since it
> >might be detectable by the customer being tapped!
> >
> >Your second example, (and I have worked on large VOIP networks using cisco
> >and other equipment), is just plain wrong.  Voice quality functions for
> >VOIP are built into the Voice gateway.  You don't have to "listen in".
> >Telco people can't listen in either, unless they want to lose their job.
> >In wireline switches, there may be capabilities to listen in, and to
> >provide audio monitoring ports for law enforcement. (Law enforcement is
> >usually not allowed in the CO, but get a special line for recording
> >wiretaps).
> >
> >And last, the analogous actions in a VOIP network (as I said previously)
> >do NOT involve the first hop gateway, which typically isn't VOIP _AWARE_
> >
> >I think you need to learn more about Voice networks before proposing
> >RFC's to solve problems. The problems you are quoting don't exist.
> >
> >If you work for Cisco, please consult your VOIP group.
> >
> >		--Dean
> >
> >On Sat, 1 Mar 2003, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'll provide two examples.
> >>
> >>1)	In most nations there is a regulatory requirement to
> >>	that a service providers provide a wiretap of a
> >>	customer when presented with a warrant.  When performing
> >>	such a tap customer premise equipment is not considered
> >>	trusted, even if it is controlled by the SP.  Therefore
> >>	the device in the network responsible for carrying
> >>	out the wiretap must get cooperation from the
> >>	first hop router in the SP's network.  See
> >>	http://www.packetcable.com/downloads/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf
> >>	for example.
> >>
> >>2)	In the traditional PSTN networks ( according to my telco
> >>	guys, I'm *not* a telco guy myself ) there are a group
> >>	of maintenance functions which involve monitoring the
> >>	actual voice streams of a call for small periods of
> >>	time to check voice quality ( I'm told in the US this
> >>	is legally permissible for between 20-30 seconds of
> >>	a call ).  Analogous maintenance actions for a VoIP
> >>	( say MGCP driven Cable VoIP ) SP would require
> >>	cooperation of the first hop gateway in the service
> >>	providers network.
> >>
> >>Ed
> >>
> >>On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Dean Anderson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>This seems the wrong way to go about MGCP management activity. What makes
> >>>you think the first hop router will have anything to do with VOIP or MGCP?
> >>>
> >>>In the VOIP networks that I've worked with (a number of large voip
> >>>installations since 1998), the first hop routers were never VOIP-aware at
> >>>all.
> >>>
> >>>		--Dean
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Edward Warnicke wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Not everyone is privy to the routing tables.
> >>>>
> >>>>For example.  Imagine an MGCP call agent which wishes to
> >>>>perform a maintenance activity that requires the cooperation
> >>>>of the first hop gateway for an MGCP gateway.  I'm aware
> >>>>of no MGCP call agent which participates in the IGP for
> >>>>the networks containing those endpoints.  Additionally
> >>>>almost all IGPs will allow for some route summarization
> >>>>which would prevent me from actually knowing who the
> >>>>first hop gateway is in some circumstances.
> >>>>
> >>>>So in this example I would either have to provision the MGCP
> >>>>call agent with information about where the first hop gateway
> >>>>for each endpoint was, or allow it to use the method of the
> >>>>draft to resolve it.
> >>>>
> >>>>Since many of the environments where MGCP is seeing deployment
> >>>>have a very large number of endpoints, and an unusually large
> >>>>churn of first hop gateway changes ( think splitting a cable
> >>>>node ), as well as a tendency toward hierarchical distibution
> >>>>of control of the network, DNS resolution of this information
> >>>>seemed to make sense.
> >>>>
> >>>>The reason RFC 1101 doesn't get used for these sorts of
> >>>>purposes is that it doesn't support features in common use
> >>>>in these networks ( variable length subnet masks ).
> >>>>
> >>>>Ed
> >>>>
> >>>>On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Robert Elz wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>    Date:        Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:01:03 -0500
> >>>>>    From:        Ed Warnicke <eaw@cisco.com>
> >>>>>    Message-ID:  <3E5E7C8F.2000404@cisco.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  | But DHCP will not allow a device which
> >>>>>  | is not the endpoint ( or the DHCP server ) to discover the network which
> >>>>>  | contains
> >>>>>  | an IP address and the first hop gateway(s) which service that network.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Rather than how, perhaps the question should be why would anyone care?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>That's largely why 1101 never got used - the nodes for which it might
> >>>>>have provided information that could didn't already know it via other
> >>>>>means, never had much of a reason to care.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Why would my nodes care what the network that contains some random IP
> >>>>>address might happen to be (or why would I ever care more than the
> >>>>>routing tables will tell me) ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>kre
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>#----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>#----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>># To unsubscribe, send a message to <dnsop-request@cafax.se>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >#----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ># To unsubscribe, send a message to <dnsop-request@cafax.se>.
> >
> >
>
>
>

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